Role of Chief Operating Officer
With VCCF’s Jeffrey Lambert and Vanessa Bechtel
Video Transcript: Role of Chief Operating Officer
0:05 Welcome everybody we'll give just a couple of minutes to let people come
0:10 into the waiting room
0:16 it's hard Vanessa and I are used to hosting these and being the greeters and we're just going to be quiet I know
0:25 all right something we'll learn something new every day
0:33 all right well let's get started welcome everybody to Visionality's Building
0:38 Forward I am so excited and it looks like everyone else is excited to hear
0:44 from these two really incredible people in our community because we have a lot of interest in this topic so we're going
0:51 to talk today about the role of a CEO and we have two really great people with
0:57 us we've got Jeff Lambert who's the CEO of Ventura County Community Foundation and Vanessa Bechtel who is the CEO of
1:04 the Ventura County Community Foundation so what the heck is a C-O-O
1:12 well it's interesting I know you shared the article that I shared with you ... from the Harvard Business review and uh
1:18 Vanessa and I have been working through that article ... since last summer and ... what's what I think the bottom line of
1:24 the article is there's no clear definition what a CO it is and it depends on what the CEO wants
1:31 ... and so it really is about the relationship not about the position by itself and I think one of the things I liked about that article is it sort of
1:37 articulated I think was seven different potential roles ... and Vanessa I think spent some time
1:43 last summer trying to figure out which role is or roles ... best suits are partnership and it
1:49 really was the partnership role and the executed role were sort of the key ones although it's probably all
1:57 of them but for us they both I think they both really highlighted the kind of
2:02 relationship that we've had over the last ... almost two and a half years ... working together ... that's so I think the bottom line is
2:09 there's no definition of Co right Vanessa well and I think I what I really like
2:15 about the through the scene that article or did people not see
2:21 that article we we just posted it in the chat and we'll send it out after two via
2:26 email okay you know I it was so interesting is I think ... it was a really interesting evolution I
2:34 have one of my former board members here ... Tim Gallagher ... for the Ventura
2:39 County Community Foundation but we have gone we had gone through quite a journey and as we were growing and as we were
2:46 ... really starting to Branch out into new areas the board ... we had an opportunity in August of
2:53 2020 and it was actually for me it was the first time in my career that I really felt like oh my gosh I cannot
3:00 literally work outwork these problems like there's just like no there's just
3:05 literally for the first time it was that had always been my strategy ... prior to adding a chief operating officer was you
3:13 know just outwork it you can do it keep it up ... keep plugging away and I think in August of 2020
3:19 ... really recognizing that we needed to reset the table and ... and that was throughout the organization just really
3:26 refresh and reflect I mean obviously we had all gone through multiple wildfires
3:32 ... we had responded ... as a philanthropic Agency for the borderline mass shooting we had really stretched
3:38 ourselves in the pandemic we had gone from Raising between three and five million per year historically to then
3:44 doing 30 38 47 million you know it was just an unprecedented amount of growth
3:51 for us including you know equally you know getting that same type of dollars out the door so when we got to August
3:58 2020 it was really an opportunity for the board ... and and for our you know CFO and and
4:05 me to really reflect and say we need to have we need to add executive leadership
4:12 within the vccf team and that needs to be a chief operating officer and of
4:17 course you know you know welcome Jeff ... and what we realized is you know going through this journey over the
4:24 summer really recognizing the fact that you know the definition of what a chief operating officer does isn't clear and
4:31 organizations are going to need different types of Chief Operating officers depending on what stage the organization is at
4:37 and you know what type of obstacles and roadblocks are on on someone's page so
4:43 for us you know what the board really wanted and you know I agree is the board wanted to have someone come in and
4:49 really be able to run the day-to-day operations of the foundation and that
4:54 would really allow me to go out more in the community help grow philanthropy in
5:00 the region have a wider presence and then engage in a different way within our community leadership and so you know
5:07 the execution we talked about that executor role absolutely but I'll tell you for me too what I really wanted more
5:15 than even that was a partner ... you know I have had a really wonderful partnership with our CFO our
5:22 vice president and Chief Financial Officer Bonnie she's phenomenal and she is absolutely a true partner in every
5:28 sense of the word but what we realized is that we also needed a partner in regards to how we were engaging in the
5:34 community leadership work in terms of our client service ... really having that type of close
5:40 connection and of course those are only two of the seven options ... but for us those were our highest priorities
5:47 well and I loved what you talk about with this partnership you know, I... I as
5:52 the leader of my organization I feel like it's my job to sort of be a shield for my employees and to like handle the
6:00 tough stuff and like I'm gonna handle the stress so that like your job is just to show up and like do good work but
6:07 that is lonely and hard and so just like having someone again at that executive
6:14 level who is maybe even excited about this dress or excited about the
6:20 challenges to like face those in tandem with you it's such a gift okay you know it's funny too because I
6:27 was thinking a little bit about the only other time I was fortunate to have a chief operating officer was at Santa
6:32 Barbara City College foundation and I don't know how many of you know Jim Rivera but he was my former boss
6:39 ... he was also I've had the opportunity to recruit him twice in my life and I
6:44 was looking at this list and I was realizing you know at that time in that stage of my career what I really needed
6:51 at that time was a mentor ... you know when we recruited Jim Rivera
6:57 he he had had you know 40 years of experience he had run visiting nursing
7:02 hospice for 16 years he'd been at the Santa Barbara foundation for 10 years he'd worked as a consultant for Netzel Grigsby
7:07 he had just such a wealth and depth of experience and that really complemented you know my talents and and
7:14 the things I could bring to the table and so I just really recognize the fact that it is a journey
7:21 ... and of course ... a lot of times people bring in and I was talking to a colleague last night in
7:27 the field and she's recruiting a chief operating officer definitely with the intention of changing things up really
7:33 bringing them in restructuring going through all of that so each role is really valid and I think you know why
7:40 it's such a misunderstood role and why it's such a difficult position to be in is the fact that those expectations of
7:47 what it is probably also change over time and very few people go into it with
7:53 the understanding of like which of these seven roles or which ones of the seven roles are important to us yeah I think
7:59 too, I... I think it's really trying to less worry about the definition but it's the
8:04 alignment of the two leaders so you know I think when Vanessa and I are at our best we've spent time together
8:11 ... and we in last summer we spent I think was five or six almost full day Retreats
8:17 ... sometimes hiking they started off hiking and then I realized we would talk in a hike for three hours and I didn't
8:23 write anything down ... so, I... I was a little at a disadvantage because I don't have her brain set that
8:29 that she has so we started revisiting it so we sat at either end of her dining room table or so we could you know kind
8:36 of do that work and I think that time together it really aligned our perspective on the organization and what
8:42 needs to happen and and and so and it's hard when we're both doing this to find that time so I think one of the one of
8:49 the lessons we've learned over this last two two and a half years is we've got to focus on our communication
8:55 ... in a way that kind of works for both of us because that's going to keep Us in alignment and make sure that when I'm
9:01 implementing it's it's you know sort of in line with you know Vanessa's perspective I think it also gives us a
9:07 shared sense of urgency ... and when when Vanessa's urgent about something, I... I need to be urgent about
9:13 that same thing you know that's funny you know I will tell you still one of my favorite meetings of my
9:19 entire life was the first time we went hiking and I think we hiked 13 miles like 23 000 steps like up a hill over a
9:28 mountain down like really crazy steep road so ... yeah but that was just really
9:33 wonderful and, I..., I... I do agree I think one of the pitfalls of the relationship is to not spend that type of time
9:40 ... and when you get and I've seen it multiple times because we're a small team and I know many of you on the call
9:46 too are working with small teams but we have 15 people and in that period of time you can really get to the point
9:52 where barely your fingertips if even that are touching right you're just holding up so much and when that happens
9:59 I think misalignment happens ... and especially for the smaller team if you don't have a lot of depth of the
10:05 middle management level that can also be really hard ... and so I just really feel like ... we
10:12 get it if you're here because you're looking at exploring new ways of working together I think it is a journey and
10:18 frankly there's a lot of great resources this article though was really um
10:24 really a profound way for me to re-look at how we can best best work together what I could do differently
10:31 as a CEO how I could show up differently and then also how to align how to align
10:38 our expectations together for the organization I remember Vanessa the first time you and I did an event together it was a
10:45 VCLA event at the winery in Camarillo and it was you know covid was kind of opening up and the VCLA had their
10:51 event and Vanessa and I walked in together and we we worked the room separately and then every 10 or 10 or 15
10:58 minutes we'd walk past each other and say I talked to so and so I talked to someone so off we went again and it was like this dance we did for two hours and
11:05 it was we didn't plan it we didn't talk about it in advance it just sort of worked ... and it's an interesting because we we
11:12 have some people on our team that are introverts and are not I don't want to go to public events and be social and
11:18 work the room so ... and Vanessa can't obviously do that all herself so that's fun but I think
11:24 the other tension for me and just and we've talked about this is I'm I'm social but I also have to focus
11:30 internally so that that balance of being that operations person which is my primary responsibility with the external
11:36 role that I also play it it's there's a tension there ... but it's clear it's a it's a healthy
11:43 tension but it's one of the things I have to pay attention to in my role because my primary role is implementer
11:48 of the day-to-day operations of the organization yeah so one of our favorite
11:54 questions to ask are guest stars on Building forward is how did you sell
11:59 this to your board right we all need to convince our board to do the things we
12:05 know we need to do so I'm just so curious Vanessa you mentioned ... you had this realization finally that
12:12 you couldn't outwork which like I think a lot of us have been there like this is
12:18 too big I just cannot outwork this and then but then you had to con convince a
12:23 group of people that it's in everyone's best interest to invest so that you can expand so talk me through that process
12:31 and how did you do it okay I have a, I... I mean I had a very talented board they
12:37 actually reached that conclusion way before I did I tend to be really cheap in terms of
12:44 like where I want to spend our limited resources so ... I it took me a long time I'm Tim's
12:50 laughing probably because it's true I think they actually came to it over a year and actually the the meeting
12:57 that stands out to me was I was in a board meeting or a board recruiting meeting with our board chair Scott
13:03 Hanson at the time and our new prospective board member Jack edelstino we were all talking and instead of it
13:10 being a board recruiting ... meeting it was Vanessa really need to help and we need
13:17 to get a chief operating officer so for me it was really how do we sustain the position how do we how do we get the
13:23 capital that we need to actually hire the position and how can I guarantee that we ... can sustain that that growth
13:30 and also attract Talent at the right level right so how do we pay competitively and how do we set that up
13:36 for success that said it's not the first time that I had wanted to recruit a chief operating
13:42 officer in my year so I will take you back to the first time which was at Santa Barbara City College where I did
13:47 have to really work with the board and really it wasn't a foregone conclusion and there were a lot of people that
13:53 didn't see the need and in that instance and I'd be happy to share this tool I
13:59 actually have a PowerPoint presentation that I've got done a number of times that like would walk you through it but
14:05 there's something called the 7s analysis and the 7s analysis is called the 7s
14:12 analysis because it's all about the different ... the different s's strategy structure
14:20 Staffing style ... skill set you know um
14:26 ... shared values there's there's seven of these S's and there's actually a
14:31 series of questions that you can ask yourself as an organization and and shared values is really at the center of
14:37 it and I think in the non-profit World there was a really interesting article that was just published in Los Angeles
14:43 by a an executive director of an Arts organization and, I... I really if you would
14:51 like to kind of look at the you know an authentic display of what it's like um
14:56 to be at the home of an organization or in a leadership role within an organization I guess we're all in
15:01 leadership roles but like at you know where the buck stops with you I thought that that article was really compelling
15:08 because it really talks about Emily the isolation or or the burnout factor and I
15:13 think about our shared values ... as our organization we have seven values
15:19 ... Excellence is one of them but authentic connections trust tenacity compassion
15:25 ... you know we have a bunch of we have seven values I could list them all but but bottom line at the end of the day what our value is not is wanting to see
15:34 people ... left in tears because they're they're just at wit's end of not knowing how to
15:40 move forward ... or feeling all alone or not able to hold hold it together and I think
15:46 there's a reason right now in California that the average tenure of a non-profit professional is 16 months that is not a
15:53 long time that is significantly lower than it was before the pandemic and so if we digest all of these things the 7s
16:00 analysis really helps us look our strategy we could have the best strategy
16:06 in the world but if we don't have the Staffing needed to be able to execute that it's not going to be effective if
16:12 we're not paying people if we're not recruiting at the right level if we don't have the right skill set we're not
16:17 going to get there and so really looking at how we are aligning those seven s's
16:24 when you look at that and you display it to the board and there's a wonderful graphic I think it's an incredibly
16:31 compelling and effective tool because it just it really
16:36 it really helps see the strengths but also the areas that are not aligned
16:41 to be able to move things forward and I think skills skill set is a huge one I'll tell you the last thing I'll say on
16:49 this is that the first time I tried to rebuild the foundation in terms of adding staff I did not build with the
16:55 right level of Staffing, I... I had a really limited budget I said you know I can't
17:01 afford to pay more than you know minimum wage for example maybe for my assistant well I'm you know that is a job that is
17:09 a very hard job you cannot pay minimum wage and get the the skill set and the level that you need and I think with the
17:16 Chief Operating Officer the same holds true, I... I will tell you Jeff has been
17:21 doing the job of three people or more ... but it's it's because it's had a whole career behind him and a huge
17:28 amount of expertise that he has brought to the table so yeah I wanna I wanna pull one thing out
17:34 ... I think the answer to how did you sell it to your board is that you co you
17:40 have co-created a shared Vision with your board so you didn't have to sell
17:45 anything to them because they we were all already on the same page right so let's give a little like thumbs up to
17:52 board development and you know co-creating a vision and a value statement
17:58 so that you're all Marching In The Same Direction yeah true yeah yeah Jeff what was it
18:06 like coming in and building building this position at such a
18:13 well-known well-respected long history organization but two that has been
18:21 through so many changes so much growth like sort of at the heart of some really
18:27 big challenges that we've had at a community what was it what was it like
18:32 creating and co-creating the space for yourself yeah it was interesting I don't
18:38 know how many of you know how I came to be the co ... but Vanessa and, I... I think had crossed
18:44 paths in from a distance and never really had a any kind of a conversation I think mostly I was exposed to Vanessa
18:51 through the 2020 census work because I've had my city Hat on at the time and when I left Oxnard I posted on Facebook
18:57 that I was leaving and ... I got a few comments mostly positive
19:03 ... and Vanessa noticed ... and called a couple people that we knew together and said is this a guy I
19:08 should talk to ... and so we had a immediate I think two-hour Zoom meeting that could have
19:15 gone longer we just kept talking and then and then we had lunch and then I
19:20 started working at the foundation so my My Life as a consultant after Oxnard lasted in about two months and then I
19:25 went back to a real job again ... you know it's interesting, I... I ... I I
19:30 I actually didn't know the foundation very well and as Vanessa I've talked
19:35 about I knew the foundation based on their disaster work our disaster work I didn't really understand the fiduciary
19:41 role and that whole piece so it was a huge fire hose of learning for me
19:47 ... and as I said to Vanessa recently I mean, I... I had an executive job at cities for 20 years
19:53 ... but it's a whole different industry and so for me there's a lot of learning about what we do and ... and it's been it
20:01 was a great experience I was like Vanessa sidekick I think for the first six months and just went to everything she went to just so I could learn
20:08 ... and I'm I'm still learning but, I... I think it's been a great experience to
20:13 try to dive into something new I will say though it's Venture County right and it's still a small place and a lot of
20:21 the people are the same I mean I knew Tim who was on the board when I joined ... I knew some of the other board members I knew many of our donors from
20:29 my my world in local government so it wasn't totally foreign and we start I mean we're working on affordable housing
20:35 and homelessness things that I did in my previous career we're working on broadband and we're working on Early
20:41 Child education we're working on things that are very City Planning and Community Development sort of related so
20:48 that the work the subject matter hasn't changed a whole lot the way that my role in it is changed
20:54 and that's been the probably the biggest adjustment and I think of even Thomas fire you know I was the community
20:59 development director when that happened ... and I have that perspective of that rebuild process and now I come to the
21:05 foundation and I'm helping people who still are trying to rebuild their homes and the support they need to do that
21:11 from a very different perspective but it's the same work in a way ... so I can't imagine a better fit
21:19 ... as far as sort of what what I care about and the impact you know that I want to sort of leave in the community I
21:25 have to learn the East County honestly I don't I didn't always know the East County very well so I have to broaden my
21:31 perspective but that's helpful too
21:36 you know I was thinking about it is the power of social
21:42 which I have not been using these things but I will tell you that was ... you thought was how, I... I came across Jeff and
21:48 I was really impressed but values of course are the heart of everything and I think what one of the things that I'll
21:55 I'll just take take a step back what really resonated with me when I was calling people and getting to know about
22:01 Jeff what one of the best parts about that process was having so many people
22:08 say Vanessa his Integrity his Integrity his integrity and to me that was a core
22:13 a core tenet of knowing that that you know it would be a good fit and
22:19 I will tell you you know it's not easy I think one of the other things that we practice is arguing all the time
22:26 ... you know and disagreeing and you know I think that that actually is something that we have to cultivate more within
22:33 the non-profit sector ... and I probably in the private sector too but I think especially within the
22:38 nonprofit sector because so much is at stake for us our missions matter so deeply if we're
22:46 not effective it's not just a profit margin that's impacted right it's the whole community and so how do we call cultivate the
22:53 conditions how can we have really difficult conversations leave the meeting and then move forward as a unit
23:00 and I'll tell you you know that is a core principle for me within the executive team if I'm in an exec team
23:06 meeting and we're not arguing about something or if we don't have different opinions we're not being successful in
23:11 pushing ourselves forward and that's really hard ... so I think about how we set that
23:16 ourselves up for success and I definitely think our our hiking together and those times really matter because
23:23 you get to know people on a on a different level ... and then you know two it's you know
23:29 how can you have have ruptures disagreements ... you know not aligned on on the
23:36 outcome of something and how do you recover from that and and and I think that one of the best parts about our
23:41 partnership Jeff is the fact that we have had difficult conversations you've seen something some way I've seen
23:47 something some way ... you know I think Jeff's more likable than me and sometimes sometimes that can
23:55 be really hard you know but like I just feel like you know you can you can you
24:00 can learn your strengths ... there's another test that ... or a tool that I
24:06 thought was really really valuable ... and it was strengths ... SDI ... and
24:11 it's I don't know how many of you have seen this and if you've done it it's a fantastic and a fantastic exercise and
24:17 they actually donated ... the company actually donated it to our team
24:22 ... because of the work that we're doing and we did this with the whole team but what it is is it's it's first of all
24:28 it's your natural tendency like who are you are you a dominant personality are
24:34 you like really people first are you highly analytical you know and it's a spectrum none of us are like one or the
24:40 other we are all like a blend of something ... some of us are higher higher dominant personalities than others ... but we did
24:47 that actually as a whole team but what, I... I love about this is it doesn't just go through
24:53 your strengths it doesn't just go through your natural tendency it also talks about how you react under stress
25:00 so for me I'm I'm a fairly warm person but I am absolutely a red I am like a
25:05 dominant person you know me and Bonnie we're both dominant people like you know
25:10 you put us up there we're gonna like lead the way right ... and you know Jeff is more of a blue a
25:16 blue person like more people people driven which frankly is a great compliment but when I'm under stress I
25:23 actually become highly analytical so like, I... I change really dramatically when
25:28 I'm under stress and I try to mitigate that I'm aware of it but my natural tendency is like
25:35 I don't care about feelings anymore I just want to know what is what are the facts how are we going to move forward
25:40 you know I don't care about blame which is I think a good thing but I also lose a little bit of that warm and fuzzy and
25:47 so one of the best parts about the like setting up the Chief Operating Officer
25:52 and the chief executive officer relationship is to also understand that you're going to weather many different circumstances together they're going to
25:59 be really great wins and then there are going to be really hard days and and understanding how
26:05 how we each respond I think is really key because
26:10 ... it helps give context context in those moments it also is a great way of like
26:17 leveraging each other's strengths because if you you know if you know that you're highly analytical and you kind of
26:22 don't care about people's feelings when you're when you're trying to figure out a problem having someone like Jeff who's
26:28 a natural like people person to balance you out is a really great thing so you know you can tap into each other's
26:34 strengths that way but, I... I will tell you that I think has been a very valuable just a very valuable understanding and
26:41 doing it with the whole your whole executive team is great one of the things oh go ahead don't go
26:47 ahead I was just going to say when you said executive team I think that's one of the other sort of secret sauces too is we have a not just the two of us it's
26:54 a broader team and we have achieved compliance officer and a Chief Financial Officer and a chief philanthropy officer
27:00 that are part of the team and I think we all balance each other really well I think I mean I think Vanessa and I tend
27:06 to say yes yeah we'll do that of course and then our CFO and CCO say are you
27:13 sure we have the capacity to do that and so that's I think that tension is helpful because we think through the
27:20 implications of of the yes sometimes to make sure ... that we ... understand how
27:25 it's going to play out yeah you know I think Jeff what you just shared I just I don't wanted to you know
27:31 also touch on which is the relationship between a chief operating officer and a Chief Financial
27:37 Officer is equally as vital and I think that we're focusing right now on that
27:43 executive partnership within the CEO coo range but that CEO that coocfo is as
27:51 important to the success of of of the organization and I think
27:57 ... over time that Trio right that Trio that is a really delicate balance
28:04 because for us you know you start with ... the Chief Financial Officer most of the time and then the chief executive
28:11 officer most of the time it's the chief operating officer that walks into the situation sometimes the Chief Financial
28:18 Officer has played both roles right or sometimes the CEO has played both roles
28:23 but when you add that new mix really setting up that relationship in a in a
28:29 good way is is critical because they're absolutely part owners and at its best
28:34 the CEO is then free to to leverage their talents you know there's a great
28:40 article also on Harvard Business Review that talks about the qualities that you look for in a chief executive officer
28:46 and it's fun because there is no right personality or right
28:51 skill set for a chief executive officer the ability for chief executive officer to bring in a team that complements
28:58 their skill set is a huge gift to an organization but I also really will say
29:04 Jeff and I have one way of operating together based on our strengths but we're all going to be different people
29:09 and really evaluating how what type of CEO you are and where your greatest
29:15 gifts are is great ... the last thing I just you know and I can't say it because it involves a swear
29:21 word but ... there ... there's ... one of my my executive coach says to me you know the
29:28 role of a chief operating officer every day is to eat ... basically a mud sandwich every day
29:34 right they're the mud sandwich Eaters of the organization and every day they're
29:40 going to come in and what are they going to have on their plate they're going to be mud it's going to be mud and you've got to eat the mud sandwich and you
29:46 could have a pickle with your mud sandwich and you can have a cupcake with your mud sandwich but every day there's
29:52 the mud sandwich and I think that that is actually a really key
29:57 part of a chief operating officer it is a hard job it is a hard job it is a hard
30:04 and complex job and I think part of the the gift it gives to the CEO is that you
30:12 know those mud sandwiches are not necessarily the things that they're eating right and and that's a good
30:19 partnership and of course mud was not the word but I it doesn't seem appropriate for
30:27 the Community Foundation as you know to like repeat them in word for word in this point
30:32 especially on a recorded phone call right yeah so I can't believe it but we're at the
30:40 end of our 25 minute presentation so now is when we typically open it up for
30:45 questions and then also lived experiences you know we are a community
30:51 we have the experts in the room between all of us and so I would just love to
30:57 know you know of course put your questions in the chat if you want to come on video ... just like raise your
31:04 hand and let me know and we'll bring you on video and like share your successes share some challenges
31:10 ... and we already had one question that's in the chat so we'll use that to kick it off ... can y'all share your structure in
31:18 which the staff reports to the CEO so just kind of nuts and bolts or chart
31:24 sort of stuff yeah, I... I and we are happy to share it or
31:29 chart so ... because we have other executive teams so we have a CFO and she has her financial team we have a chief
31:36 compliance officer and she has her database manager and grants manager team
31:41 ... and then so I have oversee sort of the communication and the the community
31:47 outreach Grant making that happens with our grant making Partners ... and the sort of day-to-day operations all that
31:53 but we work really closely across those lines ... and and we try to make sure that
31:59 there's not a layer from a from a Vanessa doesn't want to get involved but a layer from Vanessa has more of an
32:05 outward and external and upward sort of perspective so trying to make sure that the day-to-day operations is is not
32:12 something that's on her plate yeah and and I think ... we have something called The Innovation
32:18 framework and I don't know if we shared that ... but I will tell you we will absolutely send you our Innovation
32:25 framework what honor gives an innovation framework, I... I literally want to share it with you
32:30 on the screen right now because what it goes through ... I just, I... I close everything so I
32:35 wouldn't be distracted but I we will share this right after what it goes through is all the different layers
32:40 within an organization the strategy business plan marketing and Communications compliance
32:47 ... operations legal risk management client development donor stewardship you
32:53 know Community leadership it goes through every aspect and what we did over the summer was really think through
33:00 how and who is the ultimate Authority on this
33:05 and what was really a very positive exercise on a personal level is that you
33:12 go from doing like when you're a small team or when you don't have that type of executive depth with or breath on in
33:19 your organization you're gonna be everywhere right you're gonna be you're gonna be everywhere and you're gonna see
33:25 CEO c-o-c-o-c-o-c-o part of this exercise and the beauty of this Innovation
33:31 framework going through it is like you know what newsletters you have a chief operating
33:36 officer super talented capable do you really need to see the newsletters that
33:43 he has approved is that really a good use of your time and the answer of course is like no social media do you
33:49 need to see that no risk management you have a CFO a chief compliance officer and a chief operating officer what value
33:57 are you thinking are you going to add to that conversation and obviously I
34:02 believe all of us will add value but you have to also look at the balance of what what is the extra value does that time
34:10 really pay off so we went through this exercise it actually has been an
34:17 eight-month exercise we have just solidified the final version and that
34:22 process of going through that exercise is more is more a check against me from
34:29 overreach and pulling away the accountability and the autonomy of my executive team then it is you know
34:36 telling people what to do it is really a permission form that says here you are
34:42 and if you look at this form you'll see a chief operating officer is everywhere everywhere and that really that respect
34:50 is just such a ... that respect and that that that that
34:57 ability to know I have the The Authority is so key and for those of us that may
35:03 not have had that support or didn't remember what it was like to have had that kind of support that journey is a
35:10 really important one and, I... I wish we had done it earlier quite frankly we kind of waited and of course for a while it was
35:17 like we're stepping on each other's toes all the time ... and and I think that that that that
35:22 that is that is a hard reality so, I... I love this framework yeah, I... I want to you
35:28 know Vanessa mentioned social media just as an example but I think it's a good example for how I have to operate so I
35:34 we have a communication marketing person she's building a social media platform and calendar and what stories she wants
35:40 to lift up in that and that that method Vanessa doesn't need to see the post but
35:46 she needs to know the themes of what we're going to talk about that month so not that we have to run everything by
35:52 her but just to make sure that she says hey it's seems like you're missing this so so my role is to share the big
35:58 picture of sort of What kinds of themes we want to cover in social media at whatever level we do this this month
36:04 make sure Vanessa has has eyes on it as brief so she can make make sure that we're not missing something from her
36:10 perspective ... or she might have had a conversation with a donor or non-profit and say this is something we could really lift up so
36:17, I... I think it's not the day-to-day for her but making sure she's plugged into the big picture so she can be in you
36:24 know kind of have some influence on that yeah I love that I love you so we have
36:29 another question in the chat do you see differences between a COO and a deputy
36:35 director I've never had a definition I really
36:41 cannot comment on that I've had ... I mean in my career I mean Jeff maybe
36:46 with your city experience ... the one failed experience I had was a chief of
36:52 staff that was a failed experiment I literally that was a failed experience experiment
36:58 for me I wish I could go back in time and evaluate why that was a failed
37:04 experience but ... part of it is ... I think ensuring that people
37:12 for me it's a team approach and I want my whole team to be able to feel comfortable engaging and really relating
37:21 ... and and expressing their opinions and I felt that that position ended up serving not intentionally But ultimately
37:28 as a barrier to that engagement and that just didn't work for me ... ultimately
37:34 ... but I've never worked with a deputy director Chief compliance officer Chief Financial Officer Executive Vice
37:41 President Chief Operating Officer all of those but ... but not that well and it's interesting we're doing a lot of work
37:47 you mentioned ... as you were building this position making sure that you were able to pay
37:53 competitively so we're we're actually doing a ton of work helping other organizations you know reevaluate their
38:00 their compensation levels but what we're learning is the names aren't the same
38:06 right you know and you know the the titles aren't the same the the
38:12 ... scope of work is not the same ... and so, I... I think you know we can call things a
38:19 whole you know maybe the deputy director does have the same roles as a CFO ... or a CEO but what's interesting is
38:26 that there's power in the sea right there's power in
38:33 and it just seems so silly because you know it's it's still Jazz he's still doing this incredible work he's still
38:39 like you're you know you're number two but but there is power in that word
38:45 Chief ... what do you guys think about that it's all about the power Emily so
38:52 ... okay ... but I mean maybe yeah I mean I think there I mean, I... I my whole career you've
38:57 heard that well what that's intimidation of the c-suite ... and and where where if
39:03 people are in the c-suite they have a whole different category of influence and if they have any other kind of title so I think that's perception I think
39:10 back to the question in the chat too it's sort of like I hate to use the phrase it depends but you can define a
39:16 deputy director role just like you can define a CO role what does this CEO or director need and it could be any of
39:23 those seven categories or some combination of the two yeah I think you know just to kind of
39:30 recap to make sure that we're like really all together I think one of the best the
39:36 best ways to really evaluate of course is first knowing what type of leader you are and where your skills and strengths
39:43 lie if you have an opportunity to add a chief operating officer while you're
39:48 making the case statement having a tool or several tools that can help you know bring that type of alignment with your
39:55 board is really important I think ... being open to not hiring within your
40:02 industry is a really great gift I will tell you my executive team I have one
40:10 that has had 40 years of experience in the nonprofit sector but the others did
40:15 not come from the sector and I have not found that to be limiting and in fact it's been an expansive
40:23 ... it's been an expansive gift to the foundation because we're bringing in best practices and we're built bringing
40:29 in a depth of understanding how government works you know working for a
40:34 private Equity Firm ... how how real I mean managing real estate portfolios working in private
40:40 Finance I just that has been a huge gift ... and then and then really setting it
40:46 up right, I... I cannot stress enough the need to be able to have disagreements
40:51 and how key it is to be able to do that ... and and frankly over time these are
40:57 the people that will know your weakest points they will know the worst things about you they will see you in in like
41:05 they will see you they will see the under ... you know under the hood in terms of like how what it looks like to
41:12 get a board packet out the door right that looks like so nice at the end like all of those moments and and really
41:17 welcoming that kind of vulnerability I think is also a gift to the partnership
41:22 because ... over time a things will get better but also really embracing that type of
41:30 plot partnership ... is just such a gift to you in the long run and I think just understanding
41:37 how each other operates, I... I obviously had this and I had this experience just in the last couple of weeks on email
41:43 etiquette ... because I am I grew up in Maine where in New englanders are notorious for not
41:49 having a lot to say and holding things close and being short of words and um
41:55 and so sometimes Vanessa will post an email and I'll say yeah that sounds good ... and she's like what does he mean by
42:01 that does he not did he not like what I'm saying good and so I've now it's taken a while for me to this to sink in
42:07 but I can't that you know my communication style has to sort of match her ... and we I have to be better at
42:13 saying here's why I think that's a good idea or be more clear instead of just yep got it on it
42:20 ... and and that's my instinct is to say on it ... but that's not very helpful when she's not sure what that means so I
42:26 I think it's just little things like that that are accused that we learn from each other how best to communicate and
42:32 it's not as easy as it looks sometimes and thank you we have another question
42:40 in the chat how would you advise really really small organizations to navigate a
42:45 COO role when that person may be both a peer and an unofficial manager to the
42:51 other members of the team I think my first thought is clear
42:58 distinction of Duties I mean it has you know I mean being very clear what their role is especially if they're an
43:04 internal candidate that's evolving that roles to transition that needs to be you know kind of carefully articulated to
43:10 the team so they understand that their role is changing ... and that they're not necessarily appear anymore or they are in on some
43:18 circumstances they're they're they have a higher role I think if it if if you do
43:23 it sort of just organically and don't articulate it to the team you're going to create some sort of distrust and
43:29 tension I would think well and I just also you know think it
43:34 comes back to the larger question which, I... I feel like we we talked briefly about but maybe didn't answer in full the
43:40 structure of how a chief operating officer really shows up and who reports to the Chief Operating Officer it can
43:48 really vary based on the life stage of the organization for us right now you
43:53 know we were a really I mean we were a small team right we had five people then we had seven people we were in crisis it
44:00 was an incredibly directive situation you just don't go through crisis without it having to be at some
44:07 point directive every day moving the needle forward but when you're out of Crisis and you're still a small team and
44:14 you're growing yesterday we had a meeting and 15 people were all there all but four of them started during the
44:21 pandemic right and right now the odds are based on the tenure in the industry I mean
44:27 part of that was we've grown our team by 50 during that period so of course all those people would be new and then of
44:33 course you have some turnover over time ... recognizing
44:38 recognizing where your organization is in terms of structure I also chose
44:45 ... because I have such a gifted and talented CFO in many organizations the
44:51 Chief Operating Officer everyone would report to the Chief Operating Officer and then the CEO right would have one
44:58 one direct report and and their assistant and that that works for a lot of organizations for me I have such a
45:05 talented team of Executives that and and really setting up the stage I didn't think that that was where we needed to
45:11 be and we ended up building pods and then from from that kind of pod situation you know I really trust the
45:18 connection that this executive layer within our you know our Chiefs right our Chiefs their communication together
45:24 their partnership my hope now is like 80 percent of my time can be spent above
45:30 the water you know I'm hoping that 20 of their time can be spent above the water
45:35 the rest of that is holding holding the water from being a tsunami right that's
45:40 the goal ... so yeah I hope that helps yeah it does
45:46 ... everyone does anyone else want to come on screen and share their their
45:52 successes or their challenges navigating this process or any other questions
45:58 I'm curious like what's like the biggest surprise that you guys have had uh
46:04 navigating this journey over the last two years is there anything that really stands out that was quite unexpected
46:12 hmm that's a good question ..., I... I guess for me it's
46:20 ..., I... I think the biggest maybe not surprised about the biggest aha is having the the value of the time
46:27 together ... that is it's you know we're both sort of go go go and and if we can't sustain
46:34 that without some really good quality time together and whether it's hiking in the mountains or
46:40 ... sitting across the dining room table and that that that time to really ensure alignment and ... across the organization
46:48 is is really critical and that we speak for one voice ..., I... I know you know my city experience
46:55 when the city manager and assistant city manager said the same thing that was the best time that that City with had
47:02 alignment and and so I think we sort of have that same sort of need to be sure ... and so spending time together and
47:08 carving that out of our day and week is a really critical component of our relationship I think
47:14, I... I couldn't agree more I totally agree with Jeff
47:19 you know, I... I think there were two big surprises for me one was
47:25 ... one was just while it's not every day
47:32 and it's not every week and I have my own lapses because I'm a person that you know tends to not know how to stop
47:39 working I have had a higher quality of life since Jeff has joined the team than I
47:45 have ever had in my non-profit career and I just that to me has been a huge realization
47:52 ... what it feels like to not ... to have that type of partner ... and there were like I can't even tell you
47:58 like I actually was having for a while like I lose it I see it's me but I'm my worst enemy so
48:03 ... on this I there have been weeks that I've actually had dinner with my husband in the middle of the week which would
48:09 have been completely unheard of ... you know before
48:14 ..., I... I guess the other surprise for me was ... how hard it was
48:24 how hard it was when things started to really work to know the balance between how much
48:31 dust I could kick up and the also the internal, I... I had anxiety frankly about what does
48:39 my job look like you know, I... I hate to admit it but like as I was delegating everything and like letting go I was
48:45 like oh wait what do I do now right I'm like here's what is so funny about this is there has never been a moment that I
48:52 have not had nothing to do or know that there's like a thousand things that need to get done but like really there's like
48:58 this moment where you're watching your job get get offloaded and you're stepping away and and frankly there's
49:05 this tension because of course you had a way of doing it does not mean it's their way and part of the being an executive
49:12 is to be able to like you know design things for yourself so there's that tension too but the real the real hard
49:18 part was once you were letting it go and you have this like slow Exodus of
49:23 everything that used to fill your time recognizing that there's so much more
49:29 there's so much more and that as you let go the world will open up and you're
49:35 gonna see things but there's this period of there's this period of time where you
49:40 don't see those things because you're teaching and you're training and you're offloading and you're like prioritizing how work is going to flow and then of
49:47 course there's this awkward tension where they're not really ready to own it all because they're still new and you're
49:52 like ready to give you know I mean it's just this weird thing that you're gonna go through and you may have already gone
49:58 through it but for us I think that was really ... a you know a wonderful Journey but at
50:04 the same time I think letting let trusting trusting trusting
50:09 that when it's done ... while you're saying goodbye to all the things that used to fill your time that there's like an infinite amount of
50:16 opportunity and and it will just Propel your organization forward and I've seen it I've seen it our pipeline
50:24 has never been greater yeah ... the number of Grants we're getting out has never been larger ... I just feel
50:30 like we're doing more now because of this type of structure so how do you pay
50:35 for it I think that should be another question um
50:40 how do you pay for it there are absolutely organizations that will invest ... I will share with you a proposal that
50:47 worked when I just I added a ... a new officer a new chief officer and I will
50:53 share kind of that format of how to develop metrics how to articulate where that that value is going to be but there
50:58 are donors that will want to invest ... in in this type of structure so if
51:03 you're sitting there and you're like I have no idea how I would pay for this ... there are ways and if you would like
51:09 we would be happy to show you the format that has worked for us as we've added people to our team
51:15 ... and see if it works for you ours the way I like to operate is try to raise at least three years in advance before
51:21 moving forward so I'm not pressured ... and so what does that look like
51:27 ... it frankly looks like more time up front before you get to hire the person ... but I think it's worth it in the long
51:33 run to not be stressed on how you're going to sustain the position and I will tell you three years with the chief operating officer will pay for itself
51:41 well and we are in just this industry-wide process of re-educating
51:48 that that Administration isn't bad it's critical right and so
51:56 just you know helping people understand that in fact adding what some would consider like additional administrative
52:03 costs actually supports the expansion of your programs
52:09 ... true yeah yep well did we solve it we've completely
52:16 just we're done installed it everyone here knows how to like go confidently
52:22 get a CEO are there any ... last questions or shared experiences
52:28 that anyone wants to wants to contribute I guess we're done
52:35 okay I will I just then we'll say one last part because ... you know, I... I have a friend right now
52:43 who's been working for a CEO ... and ... their CEO prevents them from
52:50 speaking at board meetings or weighing in in committee meetings
52:55 ... they it's just every Everything has to run through them and not that anyone in this call will be
53:01 like that but I will share with you on a personal note what a gift it has been to have that type of partnership when
53:08 working with the board I no longer am responsible for any committees none none
53:14 not one board committee I go to the audit committee I will sometimes go to governance but I don't go to any other
53:20 committees anymore ..., I... I will tell you it is a gift to
53:25 have that liberated from your schedule but it also requires complete trust and
53:31 I know how many of us recognize the fact that we are accountable to the board we're obviously accountable to our
53:37 beneficiaries our stakeholders but we are accountable to our board and part of
53:44 ... what I think the Innovation framework does is it aligns Clarity in terms of
53:49 accountability within the organization too ... but more than that
53:55 Letting Go has been a huge gift ... and as I see a lot of people and
54:01 especially right now in this period of uncertainty when we're faced with uncertainty our desire is to control
54:07 as much as we possibly can grab onto it hold it tightly you know
54:13 prioritize details that like two months from now are not going to matter and I think
54:20 what what I hope my exact team and I like work together on is is really
54:26 fostering that type of trust and the opportunity to like really
54:31 ... release ... and I'll I'll share with you part of
54:37 the reason why that works is because we meet every week for two hours at least
54:42 at least two hours ... because that type of time and that
54:48 communication is so important to ultimately not getting so disconnected
54:53 from one another and so the this ... I just I add that only because I've
55:00 seen that type of leadership before where people are afraid of having their colleagues speak in a board meeting or
55:05 working with the board or going out to with the board members and having coffee and I just encourage us to like really
55:12 create a new day and just to recognize that that may be a way from the past but that doesn't need to be the way moving
55:18 forward ... and that the more we Empower our teams to be able to speak their mind to even offer disagreeing opinions within
55:25 board meetings or committee meetings the more authentic our connections will be both with our board members and with our
55:31 our whole staff our whole staff team so that was the only other thing but otherwise Emily I
55:38 just want to say thank you it's a gift for me and Jeff to be able to talk about this because obviously we don't really talk about our relationship very often
55:44 for an hour ... and how we work together but as you can see I'm very lucky so um
55:52 [Laughter] thank you guys so much for being here this just you know like it I'm just
55:59 excited at the idea of more of our community organizations
56:05 following the structure and and and seeing the ways that it can actually help their organizations Blossom this
56:12 was really a treat thank you guys so much and you mentioned a whole bunch of resources so we will collect all those
56:17 and they will be in your inbox shortly thank you guys so much what a treat bye
56:24 everybody a great day bye everybody bye